Disowned by General Motors before it ever raced, the Chevy 427 Mystery engine became a legend in its own time. Here’s the story behind the story of this almost mythical V8.
As you know, here at Mac’s Motor City Garage we’re big fans of the mighty American V8s that supplied much of the muscle for the golden age of motorsports. In our features on the SOHC Ford Cammer V8, the Mickey Thompson 427 Ford Hemi, and the Buick Nailhead V8, we celebrate these legendary engines, while also doing our best to separate the fact from the fiction. Now we focus on an engine of downright mythical status, the ’63 Chevy 427 NASCAR Mystery engine. Let’s dive straight in.
This is not a Mystery V8, but we’re including it anyway to clear up a frequent misconception. This is the engine most commonly confused with the Mystery motor: the RPO Z11 427 CID V8. Chevrolet produced two different 427 CID racing engines for 1963, and this one, the Z11, was essentially an enlarged, enhanced version of the famed 409 CID V8, with a .15-inch longer stroke and detail improvements. Note the scalloped, inverted-W valve covers, common to the 348/409 W-series engine family and dictated by the distinctive staggered valve layout. Experts believe that 57 vehicles were produced with the Z11 427 V8.
The Z11 was developed strictly for drag racing, while the V8 that became known as the Mystery engine was intended solely for NASCAR. And while the two engines are very different animals, they share some common background and features, as we will see.
This is the real deal: an original 427 Chevrolet Mark II V8, the Mystery engine of song and story. This example is installed in the Ray Fox-prepared ’63 Impala driven by Junior Johnson in the 1963 NASCAR season, an amazing time-capsule car that survives today in near-original condition. By the way, the cowl-induction intake system was a Chevrolet innovation, and NASCAR racers use a similar setup to this day.
Chevy enthusiasts will note that the Mark II V8 bears a strong resemblance to the familiar 396/427 CID Mark IV V8 (aka big-block Chevy) introduced in 1965-66—especially around the valve covers. Indeed, many have regarded the Mystery V8 as a prototype or version 1.0 of the big-block V8, but that’s not quite accurate. For one thing, no major components interchange. Meanwhile, the Mystery motor has also been described as an improved version of the 409 built on the same block, but that’s not accurate, either.
Probably the best way to regard the Mystery V8 is as a missing link between the 348/409 and big-block Chevy engine families, sharing aspects of both. The man responsible for the Mark II’s design is Richard L. Keinath, a key figure in the successful development of several Chevrolet V8s.
On the Mark II aka Mystery V8, the intake and exhaust valves are staggered, like on the 348/409, but also canted or tipped relative to the cylinder bores, a feature shared with the Mark IV V8. The bore and stroke are 4.3125 by 3.65 inches, identical to the Z11 V8, and the crankshafts are similar, sharing the same 2.500-in. and 2.200-in. main and rod journal diameters. (In comparison, the Mark IV 427 production engine employed a different bore/stroke combo, 4.251 by 3.76 inches, and larger 2.75-in. main bearings.)
However, the Mystery V8 required a totally different block casting with conventional, 90-degree cylinder decks. The decks on the Z11, as with all members of the 348/409 family, were cambered 16 degrees to provide a combustion volume in the cylinder rather than in the head—a brief fad in engine design also adopted by Ford and some industrial engine makers. The Mark II engine abandoned this unusual feature in favor of a traditional kidney-shaped closed chamber contained in the cylinder head.
Initial design work began in 1960, and by November of 1962 the Mark II V8 was ready for high-speed durability testing at GM’s Mesa, Arizona proving ground. Shown here are driver Rex White, 1960 NASCAR Grand National champion, and (standing) Louis Clements, his crew chief. Reportedly, the red ’63 Impala test mule pictured here is the same car that was raced in the 1963 Daytona 500 by Johnny Rutherford, repainted in Smokey Yunick’s familiar black-and-gold livery.
A closeup view of the Mark II cylinder head and its canted valve layout shows plenty of similarity with the later big-block Chevy V8, but there are some obvious departures as well. Note the unique valve cover mounting pattern, the cast-iron pushrod guides, and the stamped aluminum heat shields protecting the spark plugs and wires.
Intake valves are 2.19 in. in diameter, exhausts are 1.72 in, and per NASCAR practice circa 1963, the exhaust manifolds are cast iron. Another key dimension worth noting: As with the 348/409 W-series family, the bore spacing on the Mark II V8 is 4.84 in., and the production Mark IV V8 was built on 4.84-in. bore centers as well. Three displacement combinations were tested: 409, 427, and 396 cubic inches, and four dual-plane intake manifold designs were tried in combination with the single Holley four-barrel carburetor.
In February at Daytona, the Mark II engine was an absolute sensation, as Junior Johnson and NASCAR rookie Johnny Rutherford each ran away with their respective qualifying races, and Rutherford (above) threw down a lap of 165.183 mph, a closed-course speed record. The new Chevrolet was in a class of its own. Claims of 600 hp and more have been made over the years, but reliable sources inside the program peg the engine at around 530-540 hp—a respectable figure in 1963. Extremely respectable.
On race day the new engine suffered the usual teething problems, while Rutherford made a rookie error and spun out, losing a lap and a shot at victory. Still, it was a highly promising start for the Mark II V8. Except for this: On January 21, the day before the qualifying races, GM chairman Fred Donner issued an edict banishing the automaker from all organized racing activities, effective immediately. It was over, just like that. The Mark II V8 was a lame duck in NASCAR before it ever turned a lap.
In this article by Ray Brock in the May, 1963 issue of Hot Rod magazine, the Mark II V8 was tagged with the Mystery name for posterity. But by this time, the engine was already fading into history. The operations supplied with Mark II engines by Chevrolet—Ray Fox, Rex White, and Smokey Yunick—were permitted to keep the equipment and finish out the season. But without funding or factory technical support, their efforts were doomed. One issue was with the block itself: The initial run of castings suffered core shift and other defects.
According to GM sources, it appears that components for as many as 60 engines were produced before chairman Bonner dropped the bomb. However, it is unclear how many engines actually made it into competition; estimates range from 16 to 48. Barely a handful are in circulation today, so if you happen to see one of these rare, rare engines in a museum or at a car show, be sure to give it a careful inspection. It’s a special engine—the stuff legends are made of.
If you like more on the mystery engine see Chevrolet Racing? 14 Years of Raucous Silence by Paul Valkenburg . I believe someone in Ohio owns the Race Day engine that Smokey used but its missing the heads. I tried to buy it from Smokeys family but Paul and another GM engineer who had a strong dislike for Smokey said I would never find heads to fit it so I let it go. At the time I was under the misconception that the 1966 Mark IV heads were the same but they explained to me that they were totally different in the valve spec and water channels even though at a glance they appear the same because of the staggered cantered valve arrangement. Smokeys rebuilt Mystery Engine that raced in the 1967 Daytona 500 was raffled off by the family and won by another collector in Ohio I believe. I have pictures of both of these engines but they aren’t much to look at since one has no heads and the other has its valve covers on. BTW I have a brief 8mm hom movie I made as a boy of the 1967 Daytona 500 that shows Curtis Turner and Smokey after the Race with the Smokey Mystery Truck Ray Everham is restoring. I hope he gets it right.
I remember a set of exhaust manifolds for sale a few years back in Wisconsin that were advertised as Mystery Motor parts. Plus and enfine or block purchased by a guy in the Northwest Arkansas area..since sold again as I recall. I talked to Ray Fox a few years back and he said he made the heads at Smokey’s shop. NASCAR mechanic of the year in 1956. Joe
I think Ray Fox, Johnny Allen , and Smokey had all the Mystery Engines except for three that Mickey Thompson put in Corvettes. The heads were asimiliar making it almost impossible to find a complete engine with heads.
Rex White and Louie Clements had one of the MKII Mystery Motors in their 63 Impalas. I never heard anything about Johnny Allen having one. Also, Rex drove one of the Mickey Thompson Corvettes at Daytona and both he and my Dad said it had a 327 engine. They also said that ALL of the Corvettes had small blocks. I am left to wonder why it took 50 years and the deaths of most all the players for news of the “Big block Vettes” to come out.
Ralph Johnson may still be alive. He too was a Smokey mechanic..but concentrated on carbs. He told me he was summoned by Zora to the test track in Detroit because the Grand Sport was not achieving top speed. Ralph redesigned the carburator and and all was well.
I didn’t meet Ralph until fall of 72 @ Ontario Motor Speedway. He was again working with Smokey on the “Orient Express” which was Smokey’s Chevy powered Indy Car driven by Jerry Karl. I believe it was 255ci and had twin turbos, each pulling through a 750 Holley carb. He was very fast but lacked durability.
last I saw ralph was at crane cams before they closed
Your right it was Rex White not Johnny Allen. My error. I think the Corvette confusion comes from the fact that there were two Sports car races I Daytona on the same weekend in 1963. The oval race called the American Challenge won by Paul Goldsmith in a sleeper Pontiac GTO. The road course race called the Continental won by Pedro Rodriquez in a Ferrari GTO.
Thanks, as always! While not a “Chevy guy” per se, I am definitely a “car guy”, and
remember well the myth and “mystery”. I had heard the engine referred to at different times as “Mystery 427”, and also as “Mystery 430”, though I’m not sure where the latter came from. Is it possible one of these rare, and few, engines could have made it to small town USA?
Back in the day when mass produced Chevrolet engines wore a label “…number 1
Chevrolet Team, North Tonawanda, NY” , there was in Utica, NY a ’63 Biscayne 2 door,
often parked in a service station (remember those?). It had “the stance”, dual tailpipes, and, on the front fender where the “6” (six cylinder emblem) would normally reside, between the wheel opening, and the bumper, was a question mark. Never saw under the hood. Never heard it running. Never knew for sure…but loved the question mark!
Don’t forget the CKC Racing Chevy II fastback that at least claimed had 427 Mystery Motor in it. I always wondered how those kids got their hands on one.
Don’t forget Mickey Thompson received some Mystery big blocks to transplant into two of his 5 Z O6 Corvettes.One survives in a California collection.I’ve heard an article is forthcoming in Hot Rod magazine later this year on this survivor.
I thought the Mickey Thompson z06s were all bored out 327s with fuel injection. I don’t think any of the 64/65 Grand Sports were Mystery Engines either but I could be wrong.
Two were modified wth alum floorboards,extra shocks and under floor routed thru the frame rail exhausts.The mystery engines went back to Chev after the Daytona races and the small blocks reinstalled.
The 63 Mickey Thompson Corvette that Rex White drove at Daytona in the 63 continental race had a 327 with FI. My dad served as crew chief for that car as well as the 63 Impala that he and Rex built for the 500.
I think there were two races for sports cars in 1963 at Daytona. One was the American Challenge just on the Oval and the other on the the current Infield/oval layout called the Continental . The Am Challenge Corvettes were different from the Continental Race Corvettes. There could have been two or three mystery engine Corvettes in the Am Challenge race but the Continentals were all 327 Fuelies. I think Paul Goldsmith won the Am Challenge in Pontiac GTO!!! The Continental was won by Pedro Rodriquez in a Ferrari GTO. Let me know your thoughts.
The race that Rex drove in was on the oval track only. I believe he was the fastest qualifier at over 165 mph in the 327 Corvette. It rained very badly during that race and the car had no wipers or defroster system. The interior of the car filled with water. During a pit stop, my dad jumped inside the car and punched holes in the floor to let the water out. He also stuffed rags, etc into the cracks around the inner fender wells to try to keep some of the water out. All of this was to no avail as Rex had to retire the car from the race because he just had no vision. He told me, “It’s uncomfortable racing over 160 with no vision”. Mike
Definitely were, but lacked development. Raced in the Daytona Challenge Cup (?) in 1963, however, the car was ill-handling and unprepared for the rigor of competition.
There is confusion about exactly how many Impalas were prepared for NASCAR. The generally-agreed number is three for Junior Johnson, including the time capsule at RK Motors in Charlotte. Others shifted around to various owners and sponsors…
The original Mk. II cylinder head is purported to be much better than the Mk. IV production head in terms of airflow. Smokey claimed the accountants ruined Keinath’s design. Have yet to see a legit flow bench number for the Mk.II unported, but I have heard some very strong claims — to achieve the reported 575-600 hp claimed by Jr. Johnson, the head would have to be nudging 300 cfm @28″ at least, amazing airflow for the time. Exhaust ports were at least as innovative as the intakes, GM used a very similar design on the LS7.
There was even a Mystery engine ’64 Chevelle tested at either DPG or the Firestone oval in Texas. One presumes it was a potential entrant using the NASCAR “Compact” rulebook allowing intermediates to compete (the same bait taken by Pontiac to create the original GTO.) A long-ago article by Doug Marion unearthed a shot of the silver ’64 at speed with some significant bodywork to house the race tires, I have it somewhere in my box of doo-dads.
As a final note, Mike Clements Sr. (who was Rex White’s Crew Chief) built the most unusual NASCAR stocker of all time — a pale yellow Cadillac Coupe Deville (appx. 1980 vintage) as a tire test vehicle for the Milford proving grounds. I remember seeing it at the grounds while on a video assignment in 1984. Startled, I asked our handler what it was and he said it was to try to destroy the tires on the outer right front. Mike Jr. still has the pictures — a bit blurry but no less entertaining.
Actually, I am Mike Clements Sr. It was my father, Louie Clements, who was Rex’s car owner and crew chief. After leaving NASCAR, my dad went to work for the GM Engineering staff @ the GM Proving Grounds in Mesa, Az. That was in 1966. I also went to work for GM in 1977. He and I worked side by side on those high speed tire test cars until he retired in July of 84. Then I built a couple new Tire test cars. One was the pale yellow Cadillac and the other was a 82 Pontiac Grand Prix. I was asked to try to make the GP do the job with the Pontiac 301 turbo engine. Although we got it up to speed and it ran well, it was short lived. That was simply not the right material to be used for racing or high performance use. Too light and too flimsy. So, we built an aluminum small block 350 exactly according to the Chevy High Performance manual. That was a test in itself. All things considered, it ran well.
Mike Clements Jr is my son and he is currently an Army Chaplain.
Thanks for the great first-hand memories. Really brings the story to life.
That’s interesting. No wonder GM went Bankrupt–Licensing out its best designs to the competition is no way to run a car manufacturer .
A close friend of mine owns the silver small block Mickey ZO6 which is the sister car to the silver big block.It pushed Iness Ireland’s Ferrari GTO around in a corner during the Continental.
Great article and comments on the mystery motor. There’s a good interview with one of the design engineers and lots of detailed color photos here:
http://hotrodenginetech.com/chevrolet-427-mystery-motor/
http://hotrodenginetech.com/mystery-motor-development-engineer-bill-howell-tells-all/
If anybody was wondering about the Engineer I was referring to that I communicated about Buying Smokeys Mystery Engine short block it was Bill Howell. I couldn’t recall his name but the article got me thinking and I found an email
From 2002 where he advised me the heads would be impossible to find as they were asymmetric. I wanted to put together a complete Mystery Motor so I passed. Smokey and Bill didn’t care for each other by both men’s accounts but I think there was a mutual respect for the genius of both. One interesting fact is the 409 “coincidence” Smokey discovered with the Mark IV. Smokeys race day engine for 1967 Daytona 500 was 408.78 CI. He shortened the stroke for more RPMs on Daytonas back stretch. The bore was 4.160 but the stroke was only 3.760 with a compression ratio of 12.3 to 1. This also coincides with Bill Howells finding that the 396 was just as powerfull as the 427 at least initially. Thanks to all for this fascinating part of NASCAR history. Why Smokey continues to be blocked out of the NasCar Hall of Fame is a bigger mystery than the Mystery Motor itself!
Anybody who reads Smokey’s bio book can see that the bad blood between Smokey and the powers that be in Nascar runs as red today as back in the day. Damn shame!
….. Forgot to mention… I indeed remember Bill Howell and his wife. They were very nice people and Rex and Louie got along with them very well. Along with Mr Howell, there was also Chevy Engineer, Paul Prior. Both of these guys would come together to visit our shop back in the day. They would also go to races with us and to certain test days.
In late November of 62 the team went down to Atlanta to test the Chevy 409 against the Pontiac 421. Chevy actually bought one of Ray Fox’s race ready Pontiacs for this test. They ran both cars as they were and then swapped the engines from one car to the other. In all cases, the Pontiac engine was faster than the Chevy 409. Also, the 409 was faster in the Pontiac body than it was in the Chevy body. After playing with the chassis set up a bit, they got the cars equal with the same engine. The Chevy was too high in the front end, forcing air under it. That caused drag which is the enemy of Fast.
Now, with the 409 back in the Chevy and the front end lower than the rear end, Louie had a thought. He figured that there must be some pretty good air at the base of the windshield. He thought about maybe building an air cleaner canister that would pick up the engine air from the cowl area. After mentioning this to Bill Howell, the two men quickly fabbed up the first cowl induction. It was much faster.
Mike, I happen to have the Chevrolet prototype cowl duct, not the air cleaner, but the duct, labeled Prototype 61/62. Email me your contact info and I will send some photos.
mikeclements4@gmail.com
Great feedback on here Mike. In previous conversations I had with Bill Howell, he described exactly what you just mentioned and credited Louie with the idea. Howell and Prior both were hard workers and very nice gentlemen who made tremendous contributions to GM racing efforts both above and under the table.
. Clark Irwin also from GM Tech Center worked at Smokey’s as he used to keep me informed what was going on with the BBC engines.
In the late sixties a friend that latter became a brother-in-law purchased a 63 or 64 Impala that had what I believe to be a mystery motor in it. The big block engine had the valve covers similar a MKIV and had cast iron exhaust (headers) manifolds that fit like they were built cast just for the car. At the time we couldn’t determine just what engine this was, because we knew it wasn’t a MKIV and it all looked very factory on the installation. Neither of us knew anything about the MKIIs at that time. This car resided in Louisville Ky.
A couple of articles from Hot Rod Magazine for you…
http://www.hotrod.com/news/world-exclusive-we-dyno-chevys-historic-1963-427-mystery-motor-built-by-smokey-yunick/
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1503-watch-the-first-dyno-pull-of-chevys-famous-427-big-block-mystery-motor/
I believe the lifter bores were inline like a W engine not at 2 different angles like the Mark IV and this caused the valve train problems with the pushrods
440 HP seems pretty tame to me. Smokey claimed 550 HP and Jr Johnson claimed 600 HP from the 63 Mystery Engines. I’m guessing the real number is 500 plus because the MK IV was making at least that at Daytona in 1967 and Smokey claimed it wasn’t up to the 63 MK II. Bill Howell would know if someone would bother to ask him.
bill most likely be reached thru his son’s business. howell-efi.com back in the day bill was my contact at chevy when I was building chevy race engines.
I tried that email address but it wasn’t working. I love to know what Bill Howell thinks the actual HP the Smokey/Mickey Thompson and Ray Fox Mystery Engines were putting out in today’s equation of Horse Power?
My father, Louis Clements, built the MKII Mystery motor that ran the 63 Daytona 500 in Rex White’s Chevy. He ran the engine on Smokey’s Dyno a few days before the 500 and it showed 540hp then. Smokey told him that the motors were the same, Rex’s and the one that Rutherford ran. When Dick Kieneth ran the motor on the GM dyno in Michigan he saw 530hp. http://www.mikeclementsracing.com
Yes tame. But remember this is a very rare piece that can’t be fixed. We pulled it to 6000 only once and no more. There was a dyno sheet with the motor from Smokey that showed 511. More in line with other claims. My job is to keep it healthy so it remains a historical example of a very rare engine.
Yes of course that would be a concern. I just thought Bill Howell might have an opinion as to the actual HP of the Mystery Engine. I know there is at least one more out there that belonged to Smokey without heads. Maybe someone could build an identical engine( 3D Scanner) from the others and Dyno it. That would be fun and answer a lot of questions.
if GM did not pull the plug on racing in 1963, i wondered if the 409 would have found its way into the 1964 Chevelles to compete against the max wedge mopars and ford tbolts
Ok mabey somone can help me . My wife has had a 1963 zo6 for as long as we have been together. She got the car from around elmira ny. It stays at her uncle who is a private dealer and religiously checks number’s. And he said the engine is a mastery race 427. What I want to kknow is how it ended up in that car. The even funny er part is the car has 7000 original miles on it.
If you mean a 63 corvette Z0-6 the front cross member would have to be notched to clear the harmonic balancer on a big block engine. the cross member was changed in 64 because the 396 was coming in 65
There were two 427 mystery engines in Corvettes in the Challenge Cup sports car race in Daytona in 1963. These were built by Mickey Thompson. One was #4 driven by Bill Krause and the other eas #3 driven by Doug Hopper. They were hastily built and too front end heavy and neither performed well in the race. These were not the Z 06s that ran in both sports car races at Daytona in 1963 driven by other drivers. Those cars were powered by hi-performance 327s.
I never thought to look at the crossmember. But yes it is a 63 zo6. It is one order with the the special performance package. Also it is one of 63 cars for the year to have a 36 Galion fuel tank. My wife got the car from a doctor son who’s gay wanted nothing to do with his late father’s car who kept it in the barn pretty much its whole life.
If its a z06 its probably a hi performance 327 not a 427 Mystery Engine. Micky Thompson had the only two 427 Mystery Engine Corvettes in 1963. Both have been accounted for.
Mickey Thompson’s 1963 Corvette Z06 with 427 Mystery Motor installed is the subject of an in-depth article in the current issue of HOT ROD Magazine (December 2015) and the car is on display at the SEMA Show in HOT ROD Magazine Booth in Central Hall #22743. Those of you who have questions about the car or the motor please stop by.
I wonder where the 427 Mystery Motor that was sold to Ford motor Corp went , I believe they tested it in a 63 Galaxie and it went 10 mph faster then their motor. When Ford tore down the motor, Keinath would not sell them any head gaskets for it, creating a major uproar at GM. Of Course the Keinath mystery motor Turbo Jet head would later become the Ford Cobra Jet head.
Total fiction.
That was right out of the mouth from Dick Keinath, I doubt thats total fiction, check your facts
Have you ever SEEN a 427 Chevy and a 427 Ford ? Nothing alike.
I think you’re confused the design of the semi hemi Valvetrain and nothing else staggered valve design that was used under Ford motor company that’s wihy the name cobra jet came from Chevrolet used turbojet to describe the valvetrain staggered design before Mr Keinath passed away I spent hundreds of hours talking to him about Z 11 and Mystery motor he was a genius Mr Keinath was quite good friends with smokey and spent a lot of time at Smokeys shop in Florida
Check out a picture of the DIF super cobra jet head they even use the same pushrod guide like to turbojet had
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.obituaries/ucgx6d1fLwI
Keinath did not write the book Fast Chevys. It was written by noted performance author Alex Gabbard who conducts an interview with Keinath in the book. The obituary about Keinath mentioned elsewhere is incorrect in saying that he modified a 409 to make the 427. The development Mystery Motors were 409 cubic inch displacement to take advantage of the 409 W motor’s notoriety. The early Mark II engines were 409ci displacement. When NASCAR allowed a displacement increase Keinath stroked the engines to achieve 427ci. They became the Mark IIS Mystery Motors. Later, anticipating a displacement limit they also built some 396ci Mark II’s but they never got beyond the engine lab. Billy Howell was the development engineer for the whole project and he has related all of this first hand for the articles that appear at:
http://hotrodenginetech.com/chevrolet-427-mystery-motor/
http://hotrodenginetech.com/mystery-motor-development-engineer-bill-howell-tells-all/
They are quite detailed and were written with Bill Howells full participation. Check them out for the real facts. Moreover, I would never argue with Mike Clements about Mystery Motors. His dad with one of the top mechanics working with the Mystery Motors and indeed participated in the secret tests held at the Mesa, Arizona proving grounds prior to the Daytona 500. I think he knows a thing or two about them.
Please review US Patent 3276438, by Richard Keinath, and not Bill Howell. Although Bills name is on the Society of Automotive Engineers Turbojet article it seems the staggered and angled valve design is under Keinaths name. I still stand by what MR Keinath told me that Ford paidGM for use of this patent number for the cobra jet head. Look at this patent, and the pictures associated with this patent, it’s interesting that it was filed in1964 and granted in 1966. I know all about MR Fox and Mr Clements and there contribution to the mystery motor but there is only one Mystery Motor man and that was Mr Keinath. Also, when he passed I did not want him to be lost to oblivion and quickly contacted some automotive writers to write his obituary. If there are errors in that OB it’s because no one else cared to contact the news media to let them know that a giant in the automotive field has left us. I called as many news outlets as I could to get him some press. It seems that even Chevrolet did not care about his passing. So did I stir up enough of a hornets nest yet. Or is this all poppycock.
No one is taking any credit away from Keinath. Of course he is the designer of the engine and Bill Howell gives him all credit due. Keinath himself said the engine was never a modified 409, but a clean sheet of paper. I don’t know why the Ford thing even matters, Keinath is the father of the big block Chevy and many other GM engines. He is one of the most prolific GM designers ever. Among many things, Howell confirmed that the engines averaged about 540 horsepower. Keinath stated that it could have been a bit more but he had to restrain the port design because of manufacturing problems at the foundry. I get it that you were Keinath’s best friend, but now one here has disparaged his name. He is well known and respected in performance circles. Bill Howell is equally respected and he has high praise for Keinath. I don’t see a problem here.
The story I remember. Ford used a claiming rule to buy the engine. GM sold them one with trashed unusable internals.
I don’t think the statement about the source of the 428 CJ head is correct. The CJ head is essentially a 427 low riser head drilled for sixteen exhaust manifold bolts
I am pretty sure Carl Kiekhaefer had several of the mystery 427’s for an offshore race boat – Kiekhaefer Mercury was buying GM engines for their sterndrives and I would think Carl had spies/friends on the inside at GM – he had spies everywhere else!
The part about the Chevy head later becoming the Ford head is pure poppy-cock. And, as for HP, the engine my dad built for Rex White produced 540 HP on Smokey’s dyno.
Thanks, Mike. It’s an honor to have you here.
That horsepower number has been confirmed many times by Smokey himself and the engineers at GM. Why Ford and Chrysler continue to cast aspersions on the 427 Mark II is the real mystery?
I have c2 64 . I have some old 427 exhaust and manifolds. I put 327 and some other small block engines in it.
I have driven this old car 500,000 miles.
It had 365,000 when I got it.
I would like help making my c2 into a mystery motor car replica.
My car maybe the most road driven corvette in history. Approaching one million miles.
Also someone has footage of me jumping a bridge over Crooked river. I traveled further than the Wright brothers at Kitty Halk.
I would be honored if the children of the good old Boy’s to keep it real.
Mark DeSantis, Since you used the term “Poppycock” I believe you are directing toward me. Here is my take. Go back to your post made Nov 2nd and read it. You clearly stated that the Chevrolet MM Turbo Jet head became the Ford Cobra Jet Head. As written on that day, there seems to be much ambiguity and room for interpretation. We all know the Chevy head would never bolt to the Ford block, etc. So, today you post that so far as you know, Ford did pay GM for the use of their patent so as to allow them the use of the same staggered valve arrangement that Dick Keinath used on the MKII 427MM. That makes much more sense now and I can understand where you are coming from.
There is no proof of these alleged patent deals. I don’t think either one of you know what your talking about. I have talked personally to Smokey Yunick, Bill Howell, and Paul Van Valkenburg and none ever mentioned the Ford Cobra Jet Gm patent deal you are talking about?
for your evaluation
https://www.google.com.au/patents/US3276438
how about checking to see if ford holds any patents on this valve arrangement.
Ford or Gm?
Dave, I know nothing of Ford paying for GM’s patent. Mark says he is/was friends with Mr Keinath and he stated something about a patent, not I. “I” know exactly what I have added to this board to be true so help me God. If you still have problems, take it up with him.
Mike I don’t have a problem with what your saying but someone made the statement that Ford paid Gm a patent fee to use the Chevy porcupine staggered head on the Ford Cobra Jet engine. I’m just saying that’s hard to believe and I’ve never heard anything about a deal like that before?Not saying it’s not true just never heard that story before?
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/13062394_1681042082171932_1818349755031207294_n.jpg?oh=b7953f5e2f96c6a0a3ff22549c1c78b3&oe=57BB7206
The Rex White MKII Mystery Motor
Great article. I remember those days as a kid and avid Chevy fan. So frustrating. Ford and Mopar factory backing was just too much for the independents. Ford 1-2-3 in the ’63 Daytona 500. My brother bought an Impala SS 427 in ’66 and I had just gotten my license. Whoopee for me!!!
Bill France couldn’t control Smokey so of course the France family doesn’t want him in the Hall. I believe he needs to be there as the innovator he was.
At this point i think Smokey would just say Kiss my Ass. Smokey is in every Motorsports HOF and was an initial inductee in the International Motor Sports Hall of Fame 20 years ago.
Apparently Mickey Thompsons 63 Vette that had a 427 has been restored with a Mystery 427 found somewhere. The Dyno results were disappointing but I’m told it was not pushed to the limit for fear of destroying the engine.
And he would say it with a smirk on his face. Gotta respect and admire him.